Weapon balance and Restricted Items

Discussion in 'Zombie Survival' started by Pandatzky!, Feb 25, 2019.

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  1. Pandatzky!

    Pandatzky! New Member

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    I've been playing on the zombie survival server for about a little over a month now, and I decided to make an account here because it's my favorite TF2 server. I really enjoy a number of the more frequent members of the server and the gameplay is really nice and balanced.

    However, after a while of playing, I've noticed that the heavy restrictions on classes and weapons leaves little variety with ways to play and creates an unchanging meta. After watching the video created by Jack5 on weapon tiers on the server and explaining recent weapon changes for the server, I saw that the team was a bit more active now and assumed that you all were open to some new ideas. I wanted to suggest a few ways to lift restrictions on items and incorporate them into the gameplay as well as helping with tricky balancing issues. I'm not quite sure of the limits or capabilities of how items can be changed, so hopefully some of these aren't too implausible. I acknowledge that some of the ideas are really out there and are most likely not going to be put into the server, though it would be nice to have a chance of getting something fresh.

    Medic Ideas:
    [​IMG]
    Overdose:

    By having the overdose unrestricted and removing the ability to shoot with it, you could create an escape plan-type weapon for the medic. This would add another layer of use to the amputator and the ubersaw, both being capable of building uber and thus, speed. This could not only be useful for pursuing fleeing engineers or escaping them when at low health, but jumping wider gaps.

    [​IMG]
    Crusader's Crossbow

    Due to there only being two melee weapons capable of building uber, I offer an alternative to those who choose melees other than the amputator and ubersaw. The crossbow would be unable to shoot, however, allies around you will be granted mini-crits as you taunt, similar to how the amputator heals.

    [​IMG]
    Vita-Saw

    After reading the comments of Jack5's video, I saw a good idea where organs collected could act like heads for the eyelander, which I liked a lot. Instead of each organ retaining 15% uber up to 60% on death, it could give +15 max HP each hit up to 200 max HP, which is not retained on death. Weapons such as the amputator and bonesaw would be more effective for players that die a lot, while the vita-saw would be more effective for players good at staying alive and getting hits in.

    [​IMG]
    Solemn Vow

    Seeing as this weapon is pretty much a straight downgrade, as seeing enemy health won't matter much if you've been playing for any length of time and already understand that all engineers will go down in three hits. To make the weapon more useful, perhaps a +15~20% damage to buildings buff would make it useful.

    [​IMG]
    Medic Type: Volatile

    Along with the already incorporated Juggernaut, medics could be made to sometimes spawn as a different kind of zombie: Volatiles. Volatiles would be no different than a normal medic while alive, however, when killed, the Volatile will combust and set nearby survivors on fire. Punishes wanderers if they cannot reach a medkit in time, though largely negligible to survivors in already-established dispenser forts, except for maybe getting spooked and throwing off aim a little bit.

    Engineer Ideas:
    [​IMG]
    Wrangler

    I wanted to supply a multitude of suggestions, just in case any of them seemed interesting. Because hey, something is better than nothing when it comes to the wrangler in zombie survival.

    1. While active, see a highlight of zombies through walls for a certain distance. (Can be used to sneak more efficiently)
    2. When equipped, your dispenser will receive increased metal and/or health production and distribution.
    3. While active, +30% damage resistance.

    [​IMG]
    Frontier Justice

    Since the Frontier Justice is just the shotgun with a smaller clip size in zombie survival, it's just a straight downgrade. In compensation, the frontier justice can be given a +25% accuracy buff. The shotgun and widowmaker would be more efficient at short range, while the frontier justice would be better for medium range.

    [​IMG]
    Panic Attack

    Given how in Jack5's video he said that the stats of the Panic Attack were mangled beyond repair, a totally new weapon would have to be made from it. I'm going to attempt to create a few ideas that fill roles that none of the other engineer primaries have.

    1. A super accurate, one shot, sniper-esque weapon. The only difference being this one doesn't have a scope. Good for thinning out zombie numbers when your fort has view over a large area.The rescue ranger could possibly fill this role, but it's damage output and projectile speed make it hard to do reliable damage and hit shots at a range.

    2. +34% clip size, +15% fire rate, -20% accuracy. Bad for defending a fort, good for wanderers taking on 1-3 zombies.

    [​IMG]
    The Jag

    On hit, gain a speed boost. This thing is not gonna kill a zombie, might as well run away from it if you're already in melee range.

    End Round Gimmicks

    [​IMG]

    HARD TO HIT: Medics are now 50% smaller!
    NO BUILDING: No building, have fun!
    FLYING MEDICS: Medics now have infinite jumps!
    KAMIKAZE: Explode on death!
    CHAMELEON: Medics can now go invisible by crouching!
    ADRENALINE RUSH: Survivors now move 10% faster!
    LONE WOLF: Everyone is now a zombie! Kill the engineer boss! (Engineer starts with 1,500 hp, cannot heal, moves 15% faster, and is granted crits.)
    PATIENT ZERO: Everyone is now a survivor! Survive the boss! (Zombie starts with 8,000 hp, cannot heal, is granted crits, and does 60% more damage to buildings.)
     
    #1 Pandatzky!, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  2. Naleksuh

    Naleksuh New Member

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    these are actually some really neat ideas. would you mind if i stole some of 'em
     
  3. Naleksuh

    Naleksuh New Member

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    also i disagree that solemn vow is straight downgrade. health is actually really useful knowledge and 10% isn't that big of drawback. especially when in 1v1 the swing speed don't even matter because dodging.
     
  4. Pandatzky!

    Pandatzky! New Member

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    I appreciate that you find some of the ideas interesting! And do what you'd like.
    And regarding your argument, with how I stated earlier, after you play for a while, you learn that it will only take three hits to kill an engineer (Since all melees now give +25 hp). If an engineer escapes back into their dispenser fort, they're pretty much out of your reach and you can assume they're lost in the crowd and fully healed again. Medics shouldn't rely too much on looking for low HP engineers and only pick fights with them since zombies are expendable and respawn, while engineers only have one life, are at a disadvantage in melee fights, and join your team once you kill them. Medics should try killing engineers when they have the chance since they will likely just attempt to run back to safety. Though, after thinking about it, yeah, 10% attack speed penalty isn't that bad. So maybe a +15 ~ 20% damage increase towards buildings would be more appropriate.
     
    #4 Pandatzky!, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  5. Roasty++

    Roasty++ New Member

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    Judging by your post. I assumed you haven't watched Jack5's FIRST weapons update video:



    Not the one he posted recently, which is this one unless I'm mistaken:



    I say this as some of the ideas and weapons you've suggest have already been changed, although implemented differently.

    - Vita-Saw's +15HP max health on hit: Ubersaw gives +10HP on hit. Unless the medic does not gain health upon gaining an organ, then this is basically the same thing.

    - Solemn Vow's increased building damage stat: Given to the Vita-saw (+10% damage to buildings, although it should be 15% in my opinion)

    - Frontier Justice is a straight downgrade: It's reload speed has been changed so it's twice as fast, so it basically does the same damage per second as the regular shotgun. It's just preference.

    - Panic Attack/Wrangler/Jag: I'm pretty sure they are replacing these with custom weapons, which are still in development.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    These ideas are interesting, but I do have a few nitpicks. I'd like to say I'm pretty experienced in this gamemode (27 days of connection time, and the Rank 1 player, if that means anything)

    - The Primary Weapons: As much as I like the idea of using them, it's rather silly for mindless zombies using a crossbow. I heavily disagree with the mini-crits powerup. Although I do want medics to get a buff, this is too much, basically every medic having the power to killing an engineer in 2 hits. Even thought with the wrench changes, I want to know when I am Engineer that I will die if I get hit 3 times.

    - Solemn Vow: My suggestion for the Solemn Vow would make medics who use this beefy tanks. So the medic would have 200 max health and to balance it, 80% movement speed. This would makes nests easier to destroy but also allows the engineers to escape more easier.

    - Volatile: I'm on the fence on this one, that's all I gotta say.

    - End Round Gimmicks: Knowing Jack5, I feel like the boss rounds (Lone Survivor/Patient Zero) would be too much work for a bonus round. No Buildings/Infinite Jumps. Either they should replace No Dispensers/Quadruple Jumps or not be implemented at all. Chameleon, I feel could be abused.

    I like Hard to Hit and Kamikaze. However, the Kamikaze should not activate if they are killed by a melee weapon, just to make things fair.

    Adrenaline Rush is basically perma-boost for the whole round. I would also add instant respawn, so the moment you die, you respawn (yeah, I know hard concept to understand)

    Now if you excuse me, I now have to wash my eyes with bleach because I had to watch Jack5's videos to make sure.
     
    #5 Roasty++, Feb 26, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  6. Naleksuh

    Naleksuh New Member

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    except that the ubersaw doesn't increase max health or even overheal. there's no way for it to get above 150.
    ~~favoritism~~
    there's no reason to replace the solemn vow with a completely different weapon when the regular solemn vow works fine, IMO.
    the one with the boss medic i have to agree is too much like VSH. but the part with only one engineer is defintely interesting to me.
    but i won't say how
     
  7. Roasty++

    Roasty++ New Member

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    Fair point, but I still don't like the idea of 2 separate weapons having similar functions (gain health in some way). Might as well merge the stats together.

    I agree, the "downgrade" isn't that significant and I even used it during my early days on this server (Of course Jack thinks otherwise) However, giving it more stats would make it stand out a bit more.

    Probably not the best example, but medics could just crouch in a spot on an open area and could just rush an Engineer on sight, basically making every spot on the map a hiding spot. Like, when an Engineer tries to get to point A and point B, a medic (or medics) could be hiding and being in between point A and point B and just rush the Engineer. I just don't like the idea of this bonus round.

    Similar to the bonus round where Engineers laugh when they get a kill (which is already unfun) you basically have to camp.

    Besides, I don't think Jack5's technically gifted enough to implement this anyway lol.
     
  8. Roasty++

    Roasty++ New Member

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    Now THIS I can say can be abused, based on what is said on the post. There are some spots where an Engineer can survive on their own (stairs spot on Sawmill, Firewatch or basically any spot with a narrow entrance) That with 1500HP and crits, it's a bit much.
     
  9. Pandatzky!

    Pandatzky! New Member

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    I only watched the most recent of the two videos because he mentioned the earlier video as being old and needing an update, so I assumed there was nothing really of value in it and decided not to watch it. I didn't know some of the weapons had balance changes already, but I guess they're alright since they do.

    Both the boss round ideas and the volatile medic were the ideas I thought the team would be least likely to incorporate that I mentioned at the beginning of the post, though I do wish more medic types could be added to spice up things a bit. It wouldn't be too unbalanced since medics would only combust on death, and not all medics spawn that way.

    Chameleon I was considering if it should take effect when crouching and sitting still or just crouch walking, though I could imagine why a bunch of mobile invis medics would be too strong, even if they're extremely slow. However, if they could instead only go invisible when crouching and sitting still, medics could use that as a way to catch overextending engineers and wanderers off guard if they walk too close. Maybe the invis could work similarly to the spy where there is a decloak time before you're able to attack, if that can be implemented.

    Kamikaze I thought of exploding on all deaths. Engineer and medic deaths alike (They would both hurt the opposite team so there wouldn't be friendly fire) and would still explode even on melee kills. We already have the teleporter-only round, and that's an extreme disadvantage for engineers that are then unable to make forts (or at least ones that last for any period of time, that is) so exploding on melee kills would be much more balanced than that, just don't attack zombies with melee. Medics could use the explosions as a way to damage dispensers, while engineers just need to avoid close range combat.

    (If it were easy to put into the server in the first place) Could just disable their ability to build as boss.
     
  10. Jack5

    Jack5 Moderator
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    Ok, there's a lot to unpack in this thread. I'll re-read all of this later on.
     
  11. Skaldas

    Skaldas Moderator
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    Honestly, I'll applaud you for the effort you put into trying to be inventive (because they are.) with some of the changes that you suggested. Personally, however, I think the overall point that makes medics vs. engineers what it is is the pure fact that medics are restricted to melee. The perma-boost is insanely powerful countered only by communication and skill (Something that this gamemode lacks in both given the good reasons behind it.) and beyond the perma-boost I just think that turning to medic on death is really the only buff that the medic team needs. I just think these buffs close the gap and are too strong to have in the early game.

    Given what Roasty and you have already mentioned, I actually like the changes, but the ubersaw's only use is for taunt killing. At no point have I used the ubersaw in any way to increase my chance at survivability with the stat changes that it has simply because it doesn't work. But if similar stat issues are the problem here I think, instead of +15 on hit, it should be +15 on death. Start with a smaller health pool that doesn't retain after death and work your way up.

    Being a diehard engineer wanderer that refuses to colonize I can tell you that there is literally no point. I've played enough games to tell you that the only time anyone ever decides to wander is basically never. I'm not even saying that to prevent this change that would put me at no disadvantage, it's just simply true. Trying to balance medics in this manner wouldn't really do anything for wanderers early game anyways given that any smart wandering engineer builds a dispenser somewhere always. Maybe, and heavy emphasis on that, it might be beneficial to have later in the game when most of the engineers are dead and the last few people are running around to break free from the horde.


    I think the only really good suggestion out of the three you've listed is the third one. It was mentioned in another thread (I didn't check the dates to see who suggested it first.) but using the Wrangler in that way could be entirely beneficial to wanderer engineers like me. If used properly I honestly think it has the potential to be broken because 30% might be a little too high.
     
    #11 Skaldas, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  12. Jack5

    Jack5 Moderator
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    Just so you all know we're effectively moving suggestions to the Steam group with some new sub-forums. Your suggestion is on there as well as a pinned poll, and I would appreciate if you could continue discussions over there as well as take the poll.

    Of course because this thread contains so much information, I had to split it into multiple parts, and not all of it has been copied because some information is obsolete. Find what you can.
     
  13. Naleksuh

    Naleksuh New Member

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    i'm always wondered why rushy servers have 2 forums. at least there's only one now
     
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  14. Skaldas

    Skaldas Moderator
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  15. Jack5

    Jack5 Moderator
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    Pandatzky, if you are not part of the Rushy Servers Steam Group you cannot be given a Sunbeams unusual effect on your weapon if your balance gets onto the servers.
     
  16. Magic Missile

    Magic Missile New Member

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    Had to add that part in didn't ya! ;)
     
  17. Dr. Wong Donger

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    1) I like
    2) Interesting
    3) Interesting
    4) I like
    5) Mhmm 50/50
    6) 1500 hp is a little low. I reckon buff it to 3500 and enable mini crits.
    7) Approve
     
  18. Pandatzky!

    Pandatzky! New Member

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    Whoops, I know it's been like a month since you said this, but I joined the group if it ever does happen to be added, sorry for the wait, I was taking a hiatus.
     
  19. Manish1234

    Manish1234 New Member

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    Really Awesome Idea
     
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